Fifth Candelabram - Voice

[firstofthefallen]

Seeing as how we're all so keen to talk about this new information in regards to one of our captors, and with it about sympathy for devils as a manner of speaking, let me ask something first: did anyone transcribe, or manage to save in any way, the conversations that were had with Ruana? It would be better to have a record of what was actually said and the information gained than to have to rely on memory.

As for the issue at hand that seems to have presented itself: please. Explain to me how knowing this about here changes anything? Are we meant to sympathize with her more because of her plight? Why? If she really is a "fellow experiment" she doesn't conduct herself as such and clearly doesn't view us as sharing that trait with her. Alongside this is the fact that all living beings have their own hardships and pain; there is no such thing as a painless life. To say we should reconsider our opinion of viewing her as anything but another captor is foolish if we're going to base it solely on evidence presented to us that shows us she has, in fact, had pain in her life.

Surely no one would be at fault for their actions if we knew everything anyone has ever had to endure.

Or should we empathize with her because she's a child that's gone through pain? It's always seemed odd to me, to differentiate between a child being in pain and an adult being in pain and how humans react so differently to both. Understandable that they do, but the fact is that their empathy for child blinds them. Makes them think that children are naive - or innocent is I suppose the word often used - and that they can't mean to do harm. That no child is cruel by nature. But the fact is that children are capable of cruelty. And they know it's cruelty. And don't care.

Imagine how cruel a child can be, if you haven't had to deal with some of the tests she's been responsible for yet.

I suppose my point is this: if you think Ruana is to be empathized with, or can be related too or that we might somehow find some common ground with her, you are blind. She's one of our captors, and thus an enemy, and a sympathetic enemy is still an enemy. If you want to waste the time and effort and emotion to attempt to relate or try to find ground with her I suppose that's your choice. But it's wasted effort.

Comments

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[morituramfides]

I'm working on copying everything down. I dug up the audio files again too.

Frankly, when I was a kid I'd try to stomp on rats in the alleyway. Good times.

[firstofthefallen]

Everyone wants power, and to exercise that power over something weaker than themselves. It's just that age tends, in most cases at least, to show us when too far is too far.

Children don't tend to have that view.

[morituramfides]

They think they can get away with whatever they want. Not that the idea of no consequences doesn't carry over for the rest of your life though for some. She's just one of those I guess.

[firstofthefallen]

I expect she knows full well the consequence. Sometimes we accept the consequence because we feel it doesn't outweigh the reward.

But that is always, I suppose, a matter of perception.

[morituramfides]

I don't know, I think she genuinely has some sort of twisted adoration for us. Granted, she could be faking us, and it's more the affection a crazy five-year-old has for their favorite, oft-chewed on action figure.

I guess more people give a shit about the whos and whys of it, but I don't think it makes a difference.

[warriorscribe]

Some who grow up with pain resolve to never inflict it on others. Some do not realize that more than their lack of pain matters. The nobility of one's disposition does not make one any more or less capable of learning. I do not forget what she has done, or what she is prone to do, but treating her as a monster will only ensure she acts so. She is human, if not rather different from those of most worlds, and if there is anything humans excel at, it is learning and adapting.

[firstofthefallen]

Her own decisions ensure she will continue to act so. If we were to treat her differently it would change nothing.

You're correct. Humans alone are masters of adapting. But I think it clear what path she'll continue to go down.

[warriorscribe]

The most beautiful thing about free will is that it is never entirely clear. Even when one does not think it is present, there is always the unexpected, and different wills can influence one another in myriad ways. She is not beyond help, because we cannot predict what will influence her.

In any case, encouraging her to distrust us can only hurt all of us, both ourselves and her, so it is best we try to work towards an understanding.

[firstofthefallen]

This is foolishness. You say she is not beyond help, but can bring no points to bear on how to provide her help aside from a generic idea of trying to bond with her. A bond she has shown she has no interest in.

I will admit there would be an advantage in working towards an understanding. To think it should be a genuine one on either side, however, is faulty.

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[alephbet]

Of course she's an enemy.

So was Zayin.

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[firstofthefallen]

I knew you at least would understand.

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[alephbet]

Of course we can't hesitate when it comes to what we have to do to stop the experiments on us. Sometimes people we'd rather not have to stop by force make it necessary.

If it comes down to it, I'd hope most of us would pick the wellbeing of all of us in the tower, and our escape, over sympathy for her.

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[firstofthefallen]

Let us hope they all come to view it that way.

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[pitiedthefool]

Of course she's sympathetic. Everyone has their own reasons, even if they're cruel and think of their actions as a game.

["It's this world that really kills them, isn't it?" "I did that stuff 'cause I could. And it got interesting, so I watched." "How many people out there actually think about what's real, or what's right and wrong?"]

She isn't the first, and she won't be the last.

Also yes a few of us are working on copying everything down.

[firstofthefallen]

I simply fail to see what difference it makes if she's sympathetic or not.

No. She won't be. I see no reason why people should think this a special matter.

[Of course, this is ignoring the fact that Lucifer himself is considering her exactly that by adding to talking about her.]

[pitiedthefool]

[Hypocrite.]

Who knows? Some may just want to see how they all tick; what makes them behave the way they do and why certain things occur within this tower.

"Keep your friends close, and enemies closer."

[firstofthefallen]

That's certainly possible.

Then again, empathy is another trait that makes humans human. And tends to blind them.

[neverbeamemory]

Agreed. It changes nothing.

There are indeed things worse than death, and apparently no one will die next time.

Considering it something to prepare for.

[firstofthefallen]

Most likely it will be another attempt to distort our sense of self.

It's what all the other ones have been.

[justabignobody]

It changes perception. I suppose, before Ruana seemed a monster; now she is a person.

[Not to Riku himself; this was really his first close up encounter with her, but...

It means that things aren't quite as black and white anymore; for most people at least. (Shades of gray are nothing new to Riku at least.)]

As you said, it doesn't change the fact that she is one of our captors.

[An enemy. Riku doesn't intent to regard her any differently than before.]

[firstofthefallen]

Before she seemed faceless. Now we possibly know weaknesses she has.

If that is a definition between a monster and a person, I suppose it is app.

[Sorry Riku. Lucifer is a bit...heartless, at his core.]

Precisely.

In the end, we need to be prepared to face her as an enemy.

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[divinitysoiled]

She's killed many of us, and harmed others. Those who are willing to forget that simple fact are blind. Unless she is the only way out, I see no reason not to treat her as another captor.

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[firstofthefallen]

I agree.

Even if she should show reason to desire to help us, I see little reason to not continue to hold her reasoning suspect. Or feel as if we owe her anything.

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[divinitysoiled]

It's quite refreshing to see one with intelligence among the sentimental fools this tower holds!

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[firstofthefallen]

It is.

I assume there are more who share the sentiment, but simply don't wish to be as outspoken.